Re: <nettime> Direction of Travel - social / technical

[Allan Siegel via Nettime-tmp <nettime-tmp@mail.ljudmila.org>]

Hello,
Obviously there are differences on how to solve the technical issues just as there are questions regarding the social issues; what would be helpful if those with the expertise and experience dealing with the technical questions proposed a method for sorting out these questions; AND, secondly, what are the expenses involved in these various solutions (hosting, etc.) and how do these expenses get covered?

Also, I'm wondering - because the social and technical questions are interrelated - how do the various technical solutions impact how we are able to address the social issues that have been mentioned? I think this is why the hosting service really matters...

best
allan

On 2023. 06. 15. 0:42, Jaime Magiera via Nettime-tmp wrote:

Yes, apparently it hit a nerve for you. The point was that a container would need to be hosted, one option would be on a Kubernetes cluster service. Otherwise, it’s just running on someone’s VM. There are many non-commercial options. Containerization and Kubernetes are my day job. Likewise, I managed mailman mailing lists for several decades. Portability is a key technical hurdle as the list hosting changes over time. 

I don’t think anyone is prioritizing technical over social. The technological issue is clear and being discussed as a separate issue. 

On Jun 14, 2023, at 6:06 PM, paul van der walt via Nettime-tmp <nettime-tmp@mail.ljudmila.org> wrote:

Hey Jaime, Christian,

On 2023-06-14 at 11:39 -04, quoth Jaime Magiera via Nettime-tmp <nettime-tmp@mail.ljudmila.org>:

I’ve been quietly following this discussion, but will pipe in on this aspect: Running from a
container would be a wise solution. The archives can be stored on a mount and backed up
elsewhere. I’m happy to provide my expertise in the area of containerization (and Kubernetes if so
desired) to help if this is the way folks decide to go.

I appreciate folks are just brainstorming, but i feel i should add my 2c too.  It is my literal day job to support a fairly sizeable e-commerce website (millions to billions of SKUs, millions of requests per minute) with AWS infrastructure, and we use a lot of Kubernetes and Docker.  In that context, the trade-offs make sense.  But i guess my only plea would be, let's please not overcook and overcomplicate things from the get-go.  Bringing Kubernetes into the discussion is almost the canonical example of over-complication for hosting a mailing list.

I think it's noble and understandable to want to do work up-front to make things infinitely lift-and-shiftable, but personally my philosophy is what is sometimes jokingly called "KISS - keep it simple, stupid".  Concretely, that would mean i'd favour using (e.g.) plain-old Mailman from a package repository of Linux or indeed (Rich's suggestion) OpenBSD for stability and security.

If i'm to be involved in the technical side of things (and that's the main reason i volunteered for janitorial duties) i'd want to hold off on committing to any one particular hosting company / technological choice / etc. because, as others have pointed out, our main difficulties are social.

I hope my response is sufficiently measured, but the mention of Kubernetes hit a bit of a nerve for me :).

Cheers,
p.
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